Episode 1: Relational savouring with Jessie Borelli



[Kaila:] Welcome to the Bamboo podcast, where we interview a range of guests on self-care, baby care, and relationships during the perinatal period.

We're your hosts Kaila and Leah.

Today's guest is Jessie Borelli. Dr Jessica Borelli received her PhD from Yale University and is now a Professor of psychological science at the University of California - Irvine, as well as a clinical psychologist specializing in children and families. Jessie is also the author of a parenting book about strategies for raising resilient kids, and a mum of three.



We spoke to Jessie about the five steps of relational savouring, which is the practice of prolonging the feeling of connectedness we have with others.



[Leah:] Savouring may be a practice you already do and Jessie guides us on how to be more intentional with savouring moments. If you enjoy this podcast, check out the episode linked below where we chat with Jessie about parenting empathy as well as guilt mothers feel -- especially when trying to balance parenting and a career. We hope you enjoy.



[Kaila]: All right, welcome Jessie. It's fantastic to have you on the podcast today; how are you doing?



[Jessie:] I'm doing great, thank you. I'm a little bit tired, but I'm mostly doing great.



[Kaila]: Right, well thanks again for joining us and especially with that time difference.



[Leah]: Jessie, I'm so excited to talk to you today as a psychologist -- as a successful psychologist -- but also as a mum, because I feel that any advice or support that I can kind of gain from you today will just help me add value to my life and my kids' lives. So I wanted to start with -- I'm particularly interested in your work on savouring in relation to mothers. Jessie, how would you explain savouring, and in particular relational savouring?



[Jessie:] Yeah, thanks for asking that question. When I think about savouring, I think about something that probably a lot of new moms and parents do already. But it's also something that I think we need to be really intentional about doing because it's also something that's easy to kind of forget to do. So this is something that we often do when we think about really good food, that we could also do when it comes to parenting. It's really thinking about these highlights or really special moments of connection that we have with our children and trying to go back and focus in on those moments. And try to almost like squeeze out all the wonderful juicy details of those experiences and hold on to them and then also try to like magnify their significance or meaning.

And one of the reasons why I think this is really important to do, especially for new parents, is that the early stage of parenting can be really stressful and really trying -- especially when you have you know a baby who doesn't sleep or you have other issues that come up with a baby, like colic or medical issues or life changes. And it's really, really easy to focus in on stressful aspects of the experience of parenting, and our minds naturally go towards those aspects of parenting and life. And we have to almost be really intentional about turning our minds towards these positive aspects of parenting -- the things that we're doing right, the ways that we're successfully meeting our child's needs, and the positive impacts these are going to have on our child.



[Leah]: Yeah I think that's so valuable that it's got to be intentional, because we do tend to go back and focus on the things that we've done wrong. And really let's focus on those things that we're actually doing right and connecting with our child. That's lovely.



[Jessie]: Yeah and if you think about it in any given day, for any parent, right, there's probably 50 things that you could think of or more: you know, moments where you missed your child's signals, like you failed to soothe your child, or you didn't put on a diaper right, or your child continue crying. But there's also probably, you know, at least 15 (maybe more) minutes where there were really tender wonderful moments where your baby snuggled into you, or you soothed your baby's cry, or you did something really special, they looked at you in a really meaningful way.

And everybody's capable of finding those moments, because those moments are there for every parent. And if you can really highlight or magnify those moments and really the significance that they hold for your child, you can kind of balloon them in your mind and make more of them -- of their meaning and their power for you and your baby. And what we know from our research is that parents who do that, their parenting actually becomes better over time, and their children do better. So it's actually -- you can kind of capitalize on these moments that you have with your child and actually improve your own well-being and your child's well-being.



[Leah]: It's really beautiful, and really exciting for parents to be able to see those moments and how important they are and be able to implement them because, in the long run, it's going to help your children. That's lovely.



[Kaila]: What makes relational savouring difficult? So getting into the practice of of doing this, what are some challenges that people might face?



[Jessie]: A lot of parents tend to be very self-critical. And I think this is especially true for new parents, but it I think it applies to all parents. We, as parents, tend to focus on the mistakes that we've made. It very easily occurs to us, "oh this is a moment when things went wrong with my child and between my child and me". And those are the types of examples that I think occur to us, you know, very easily. So it can be hard to identify moments when things went right, you know. And then even when you identify things that went really well and you're trying to focus on savouring those types of moments, it can be difficult to hold on to them.

So maybe, let's say you have identified like "this is a really good moment for me to savour", there might be some feelings that enter into the savouring like worrying or guilt or fear that those moments won't last for instance. Like maybe thinking, "well my child and I had this really special moment of connection but what if that's the only moment we ever have that's like that" or "what if I could never soothe him in that way again" or "what if I'm soothing him too much and what if my soothing is actually going to spoil my child and make him more difficult to soothe in the future". Yeah, right? It's easy, I think, for us to start worrying actually and make it difficult for us to stay in this place of just purely enjoying the connection and the benefits that we're giving our children. So those, I think, are really the main challenges of engaging and savouring.



[Kaila]: Do you find that there's maybe certain types of experiences that are maybe easier for someone who is new to practicing savouring? So, I would think, maybe, you know, just spending quality time maybe playing is maybe an easier way to start really feeling present in that moment as opposed to wow, I really engaged in a positive manner with my child during you know maybe a disciplining moment or something where there is maybe that potential that you could catastrophise or or sort of overthink that situation.



[Jessie]: That is such a good question and you have really good instincts. So, yeah, I mean I think to some extent this also requires knowing yourself as a parent well, too. Because it requires knowing almost what your emotional danger zones are. So if you, as a parent, do really well and encouraging your child to do things like explore new environments -- like with play for instance or trying new things or like taking first steps or going down a slide or something -- those types of memories tend to be easier for most parents to engage in. In our terminology, we call those secure base types of memories: so those are the types of memories where parents are really acting as an anchor from which their child can go off and do something new and exciting, knowing that their parent is there to support them. But those are those memories are easier for most parents, but not all parents. Some parents experience anxiety.



[Kaila]: That was my first thought as a relatively anxious person that that would be quite a daunting experience especially as a new parent to let your child sort of branch out and sort of experience the world.



[Jessie]: Yeah, and so other parents, for example those parents who experience more anxiety, savouring those types of memories, they might feel better really savouring memories where they nurture their child more or comfort their child from something maybe in the outside world that was frightening to their child or just holding and providing physical comfort to their child might be the best memory to savour.

But sometimes it does just require a little bit of exploration for the parent themselves to really say like okay which types of memories do I feel best engaging in this activity around, you know, is it these moments of providing really tender comfort for my child, or is it these moments of encouraging my child to go out and try something new, or is it just moments where I'm just spending time with my child and enjoying being in their presence? And really our findings show that really engaging in any of those types of savourings can be positive.



[Leah]: Jessie, I was wondering how can people get better at savouring moments?



[Jessie]: Yeah. One of the things that I would recommend is trying really hard when you're a first trying to savour is trying to think about all of the details of the memory. So when we recommend this to parents, we talk about it as a five-step process.

The first step is thinking about all of the details of the memory. So really almost like you're trying to paint a picture of what happened in the experience as though you're you know painting a picture for someone else who wasn't there. And the goal of that step seems to be really important, because it it almost is like you're placing yourself back in that memory.

So we ask parents, you know what could you see, what could you hear, what could you smell? You know really trying to think what did your child smell like, what did their skin feel like, what was their body temperature like, what was the hair like? You know, just almost at a sensory level trying to place yourself back in that moment. That's the first step.

The second step is thinking about what emotions you were feeling and trying to recreate those feelings in the moment. Even going so far as to try to feel them you know in your body and locate them. Were you feeling-- was your heart beating quickly or more slowly? Did you feel a fullness in your stomach? Could you feel your cheeks blushing? What did you feel in that moment?

And then we want parents to think about the thoughts that they were having. Were you thinking I'm so lucky to be in my child's parents? I can't believe I get to do this, I get to guide my child through life or I feel so confident at this moment. Or whatever was occurring to them. What were those thoughts that you were having? Or even what thoughts are you having now as you think about it?

Then we want parents to think about what this means for the future for their child. The fact that they had this experience with them. Does this mean their child's been being stronger or more connected to them, or does this mean that their child's gonna enjoy being in relationships with other people, or be more connected to the parents? What is this going to give their child?

And then we ask parents to just think about anything that occurs to them at all. Does this have impact some other relationships in their lives, or does this make them think about how they want to be as a parent to their child?



[Leah]: Brilliant.

[Kaila:] That's fantastic.

[Leah:] I really like -- and it really, I think, then parents can take that away and work on each of those steps, and they're really the techniques that they need to to know to be able to really savour those moments.

It takes me back to when my kids were really small. I remember -- I'm a mother of three so I had my second child and had a toddler running around at home and I really had those moments of, you know, with my second child this could be our last child. And I remember really enjoying the nighttime wakes -- I know no one really does enjoy being woken up at night time -- but it was time where we could connect and I really felt that it was a period of really thinking to myself, this could be my last child, really trying to enjoy those moments where it was dead quiet throughout the night she was breastfeeding and we could just have that nice time together. And I would say, you know, "you're so loved. You're so, you know, you're safe". And just trying to cherish those moments because at the same time I didn't have another toddler running around. So yeah, those techniques I think we can integrate into our life to really put us in that present moment of savouring as a parent and just realising the wonderful job that we are doing instead of letting our mind go back and and kind of you know try and think about all the terrible things we are doing. But if we have those beautiful moments of savouring, we can really connect with the child, but also make them feel really safe. And that's the overall goal isn't it, for attachment, to make a child know that they're safe know that they're loved. I love it.



[Jessie]: And you're bringing up another really important point, which is that really in order to savour to have memories to savour, after the fact you kind of have to be present in the moment as well, right. Because it's really hard for parents to go back and come up with memories to savour if they weren't paying attention in the moment. You know, I mean it's possible to do that, but it's really challenging to do that. It's much easier to do it, if you're paying attention along the way.

Like with that really, really lovely example that you just gave of breastfeeding your daughter at night. You know, you were really tuned in to her in that moment and paying attention in the moment to how wonderful you were, how wonderful experience was, and you were appreciating every moment of it. So that creates almost like a photograph, right, of a really beautiful memory that you can then return back to and like scroll through in your mind and go back to. And it's so vivid, and that creates a wonderful repository of memories that you can use them for savouring later. It's harder to do that, if you haven't been tuned in and paying attention to memories along the way, right.



[Leah]: Yeah, but also though, it's something that you can start today



[Jessie:] That's right.



[Leah:] If you feel that you haven't been present, or you can't think of these times, it's never too late. We could start it right now.



[Jessie]: That's right; and what we find is that when we start to show people how to do this exercise, then they do start tuning in more. And they'll start to notice -- like when we've done this with parents, from week to week, they'll be like "I found myself paying much more attention to these moments as they occur throughout the week. And I noticed this, and I noticed this, and I just noticed all these other experiences that I was having with my child in a way that I hadn't noticed before".



[Kaila]: I loved when you were talking about sort of sensing that environment, and how infrequently we really use all of our senses to to take in our environment, you know. Especially things like smell, I think, you know, obviously visually that's relatively easy to remember and sort of sticks in our memory. But really thinking about all of those senses, I think, is something we could all do more frequently.

And do you recommend doing any sort of writing, perhaps journaling, about these sort of thought processes and experiences?



[Jessie]: We, I think that that can be a great adjunct to doing the savouring. We have done it in person, and we've done it on the phone, and we've done it through writing, and all of them have been effective. So again, I think for parents who want to try this, I think just seeing what works best for you and how you like to express your feelings is a great step.



[Kaila]: Jessie, another part of your work on relational savouring that I find really fascinating is that of partners of military personnel and long-distance relationships.

So, for myself my partner and I did long distance for over a year when I was studying in South Africa and he's also in the Defense Force so just this week he told me over the next five months he'll be home for about five weeks. And this is obviously something -- no it's -- I'm quite used to it now.

Obviously there are challenges, but especially for mums I know in Townsville, where it's the biggest garrison city in Australia and so a lot of mums and obviously across the world world are, you know, in really challenging circumstances where they're parenting alone for extended periods of time. So, I was wondering if there's some relationships that are more or less important to savour. So thinking of that partner relationship, obviously we've discussed the infant relationship, and perhaps for single parents even a family member or a friend, I would think, but maybe you could give us a bit more detail around that?



[Jessie]: Yeah, well that -- I mean this is why I got interested in the topic in the first place. My husband was in the military, and we've had very long periods of time where we were apart living far away from each other. He was deployed to Afghanistan and Iraq for long periods of time. And then, even when he wasn't, we were living long distance and I started thinking about, you know, one of the things that makes us kind of uniquely human is this ability that we have in our minds to use our mental representations and relationships to connect us to people.

I like to use my my mind to help me deal with my emotions, right, so I was having a very hard time with these separations. And I started thinking intellectually about it, which is the way I cope with things. And I started thinking about how you know we can use these mental representations of relationships that we have to help us cope with separations. And that's something that really is pretty much uniquely human, right. That we can visit someone in our mind essentially, by visiting our mental representations of people. And, essentially like that's what relational savouring is. In a way, right? It's going back to a memory and, in this case, it's a positive memory of connectedness that you have with someone, and using that to try to strengthen something -- a feeling that you have with someone or a mental representation you have when they're not there.

And I thought, initially at least, that's where my work started was thinking that that could strengthen a feeling of closeness that you need to have with someone when they're far away, when you can't physically reach out to them. Because what Bowlby talked about was this idea that physical separation is a really core threat to attachment relationships. When you don't have that, it's a really big challenge for relationships; and so we need this, you know, we need to do something to help us manage the stress of being apart from people. And what can we do, right? And when my husband was in the military, we didn't have things like FaceTime, and we didn't have a lot of texting stuff (a little bit). Now it's a lot easier, but still so hard to be apart from your partner, and you don't have all these ways of reaching out and touching them and getting physical reassurance from them in the same way that you do in their presence. So we have to do a lot to more to make ourselves feel safe and secure and close to them. And I think we can do a lot with our minds. They obviously can't compensate for them being there, but that's kind of where the idea originated.



[Kaila]: Jesse, I found an article of yours particularly interesting where you talk about how different people can perceive a separation and savouring quite differently. So for those who are more avoidant, savouring can be more challenging sitting with those negative emotions when you're away from your partner. And in my own relationship, I definitely avoided those mental representations initially, but, over time, those memories have become easier to sit with when my partner is away, and I definitely experience more positive emotions drawing on those memories we have together.



[Jessie]: Mmhmm, thank you, yeah, I mean I think what you said is exactly right. And I think that finding ways to cope with the separation, it looks different for people who have different ways of managing, you know, their general style to relationships as you're talking about, right, with respect to attachment.

And I'm not sure that during a deployment or a separation is the time to try to change that, you know, because during a separation is a really challenging time and that, you know, might be a time to kind of honour your way of dealing with with challenges and just kind of respect it.

But it may be easier, overall, if you can deal with separations by talking about them, talking about the challenges, trying to stay closer to the person overall through various different means. Maybe one of them savouring, right? But many different means. Um, but I'm not sure that that trying to change that during during a separation is the easiest thing to do.



[Kaila]: Yeah.



[Leah]: Lastly, Jessie I was going to ask, if you had one point for mothers, for parents and for carers today, what would be your takeaway?



[Jessie]: Such a good question. I think my takeaway would be to be really kind and gentle with yourselves. I think that parents, in particular moms especially, tend to be very self-critical and I think a broader cultural context of the way in which we treat mothers reinforces this. But I think that mothers are amazing and the things that we give our children -- it's just, it's like really beautiful what we do for our kids. And I think that we deserve to be able to honour and focus on that more in many different ways. And so the more that we can really think about and just recognise the really powerful and important role that we play in children's lives and the lives of others in our worlds, I think the better off will be.



[Leah]: Oh it's really beautiful you know it's lovely. Lovely words, thank you. And I just love this concept of savouring to support parents and to connect them to their children and to really make sure that they are connected to them and and the kids have their sense of security. It's really beautiful. Thank you for sharing it with us today.



[Jessie]: My pleasure.